Forum Feedback - 03-04-09
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Written by DOC   
Tuesday, 03 March 2009 13:47

Is deflection of rounds modeled with respect to aircraft?
 
Yeah it is, all rounds in the game can deflect of all collider equipped objects, and all aircraft have colliders to detect when they are hit by rounds fired at them. We used wartime (WWII) damage and ballistic studies to arrive at our calculations. One of the major ones was a previously classified USAAF report (several hundred pages) covering the effects of aircraft firing on other aircraft (RCMG, HMG, 20mm and 30mm rounds) and the damage exhibited under differing circumstances like weight of fire and angle of impact, and fusing in the case of HE rounds.


 
One of the interesting aspects of the USAAF study we got a lot of great information from was the part that covered 20mm HE rounds striking the unarmoured duraluminim skin of USAAF bombers with crew inside at their stations who could observe and report the direct effects and consequences as the rounds struck the aircrafts skin. A lot of these reports were waist gunners and top and ball gunners who observed the rounds actually striking the aircraft and then exploding.

In a lot of cases they saw the rounds coming in from directly astern, or passing their position and impact the fuselage or tail ... slide along it setting the fuse ... followed by an explosion a small distance off the aircrafts skin doing realitively little damage, sometimes none apparent at all, but often "pepper holes" from small shrapnel pieces. Rounds observed to strike the engines or a deflected control surface (meaning much greater angle of impact than the grazing shots along the wings surface) had generally instantly noticeable results. High side attacks ("12 o'clock high") were often described as catastrophic not just for the cockpit getting trashed but the size of the holes made along the length of the fuselage and wings from high angle strikes. The HE rounds would fuse and go off just inside the skin, causing more damage compared to the stern attacks from behind.

This all made a lot of sense to us when we were building how all this works and behaves.

It quickly became apparent from correlating this and all the other stuff in the report that increasing angle of impact (yes even for 20mm rounds) so that it struck a surface at greater than 3 degrees would dramatically increase the damage done to the target airframe per round impact. We actually chose to be conservative and set our calculations slightly inside those in the report, to grant a little benefit of the doubt, ie: you probably have it slightly easier than this repsonse leads you to believe.

Additionally, while 30mm rounds were observed to do the same thing as the 20mm rounds, their proximity effect was much greater even though their deflection angle was the same ... thus even these shallow deflections tended to create some degree of havoc and cause damage where the 20mm were often "like fireworks going off outside the aircraft" <- direct aircrew quote after watching 20mm HE explode outside their B-17 having "slid off" the fuselage from a stern attack by an Fw190.
 
Why was the new 109 added to the LW? Did they just complain so much you had to add it to shut them up?
 
No we actually never add anything to the game based on complaining. We add things to address improvements we wish to make to the game. Not everyone will agree on anything so complaining is a poor way to select our choices, because someone will always be complaining. Building a good game requires we examine the game for things that will solve the real problems or improve the game because they are good choices. The reason we added the Bf109F-1 (and the Spitfire IIb as well it should be noted) was to create a mix and variety we could then employ to bring in the following as a better way to structure the n00b to vet skill and experience path; as a part of gameplay in a campaign that runs from early war to later in the war, equipment and weapons production wise. The new rank and skill tree works much better with these planes in it than the previous system did without them.
 
Posted from the Hanger forum where this chart lives to be viewed http://discussions.playnet.com/showthread.php?t=230944
 
Includes rank shift by tier and basic combat attributes pulled from windtunnel test results, this is the order in which they perform in game based on the physics driven windtunnel simulator, which actually flies the aircraft to their best performance in the attributes listed without pilot variation or error. All performance tests are done without WEP, ie: at standard military power, or "max" as you know it from game.

Note: Where summary differences are very small (+/- 2% or less) between aircraft they share a rating. Performance which varies at different altitudes (all aircraft) is averaged for rating purposes.

Colored text indicates a new aircraft type to appear in the v1.30 release of the game

Tier 0

GERMAN
Rank 1 (n00b)
Bf109E-1

Rank 2 (transitioning n00b)
Bf110C-4

Rank 3 (vet)
Bf109E-4

FRENCH
Rank 1 (n00b)
H-75

Rank 3 (vet)
D.520

BRITISH
Rank 1 (n00b)
Hurricane.I

Rank 3 (vet)
Spitfire.Ia

SUMMARY: Tier 0 attributes
*Speed
1st. Bf109E-4/Spitfire.Ia/Bf109E-1
2nd. Bf110C-4/D.520/H-75
3rd. Hurricane.I

*Climb
1st. Bf109E-4/Bf109E-1
2nd. D.520/Spitfire.Ia
3rd. Bf110C-4/Hurricane.I
4th. H-75

*Stall-Turn
1st. H-75
2nd.Hurricane.I/Spitfire.Ia/Bf109E-1/Bf109E-4
3rd. D.520
4th. Bf110C-4

*Firepower
1st. Bf110C-4
2nd. D.520
3rd. Bf109E-4
4th. Spitfire.Ia/Hurricane.I
5th. H-75/Bf109E-1

OVERVIEW:
German NOOB ride is best performer roughly equal with the British *VET* ride and the German vet ride (Bf109E-4). This is the reverse of the general trend in game, reinforcing the NON RED vs BLUE nature of the game. In addition, as a reflection of the historical nature of the game, the Germans have the high firepower but sluggish handling Bf110C-4 in their available list also.

Tier 1

GERMAN
Rank 1 (n00b)
Bf109E-1

Rank 2 (transitioning n00b)
Bf109E-4
Bf110C-4

Rank 3 (vet)
Bf109F-1

FRENCH
Rank 1 (n00b)
H-75

Rank 2 (transitioning n00b)
D.520

Rank 3 (vet)
Curtiss H.81

BRITISH
Rank 1 (n00b)
Hurricane.I
Hurricane.IIb

Rank 2 (transitioning n00b)
Spitfire.Ia

Rank 3 (vet)
Spitfire.IIb

SUMMARY: Tier 1 attributes
*Speed
1st. Bf109F-1
2nd. Spitfire.IIb
3rd. Curtiss H-81

*Climb
1st. Bf109F-1
2nd. Spitfire.IIb
3rd. Curtiss H-81

*Stall-Turn
1st. Spitfire.IIb/Bf109F-1
2nd. Curtiss H-81

*Firepower
1st. Spitfire.IIb/Curtiss H-81
2nd. Bf109F-1

 

OVERVIEW:
British RAF get their first 20mm cannons but Germans still hold the climb card against all comers in the 109s. Turning fights are a wash depending on pilot’s skill. Luftwaffe n00bs still have the performance edge but newly ranked (one level up) n00bs in all countries now get the previous Tier 0 VET rides with all the abilities these bring.

Tier 2

GERMAN
Rank 1 (n00b)
Bf109E-1
Bf109E-4
Bf110C-4

Rank 2 (transitioning noob)
Bf109F-1

Rank 3 (vet)
Bf110F-B

Rank 5 (top vet)
Bf109F-4

FRENCH
Rank 1 (n00b)
H-75
D.520

Rank 2 (transitioning n00b)
Curtiss H.81

Rank 3 (vet)
Bell Mle.14a

Rank 5 (top vet)
Curtiss H.87

BRITISH
Rank 1 (n00b)
Hurricane.IIb
Spitfire.Ia

Rank 2 (transitioning n00b)
Spitfire.IIb

Rank 3 (vet)
Hurricane.IIc

Rank 5 (top vet)
Spitfire.Vb

SUMMARY: Tier 2 attributes
*Speed
1st. Bf109F-4
2nd. Spitfire.Vb/Curtiss H-87/Bell Mle.14a (below 4km alt. only)
3rd. Bf110F-B
4th. Hurricane.IIc

*Climb
1st. Bf109F-4
2nd. Spitfire.Vb
3rd. Curtiss H-87/Bf110F-B
/Hurricane.IIc
4th. Bell Mle.14a

*Stall-Turn
1st. Spitfire.Vb
2nd. Bf109F-4
3rd. Hurricane.IIc/Curtiss H-87
4th. Bell Mle.14a
5th. Bf110F-B

*Firepower
1st. Curtiss H-87
2nd. Hurricane.IIc
3rd. Bf110F-B
4th. Bell Mle.14a
5th. Spitfire.Vb/Bf109F-4

*Bombs
1st. Bf110F-B
2nd. Bell Mle.14a
3rd. Hurricane.IIc

OVERVIEW:
Everybody now has at least 2 n00b rides and have a "newly ranked n00b" (transitional n00b) improved ride ... in addition to 2 x VET rides one of them being a CAS unit and the other a "top vet rank" ride. Performance differances are becoming more varied but the German rides always have the climb advantage and are generally faster in level flight (with one exception) .. with the greater variety of available aircraft types in the later tiers the playing field is broadly even. With a fairly similar paint scheme employed in each countries service there is a reasonable chance a pilot may not by this stage of a campaign always be aware what type he is in combat with ... as aircraft leave and arrive within a contested region and where he may be otherwise occupied defending his life or taking someone elses.

Tier 3

GERMAN
Rank 1 (n00b)
Bf109E-1
Bf109E-4
Bf110C-4

Rank 2 (transitioning noob)
Bf109F-1

Rank 3 (new vet)
Bf110F-B

Rank 4 (vet)
Bf109F-4

Rank 5 (top vet)
Bf109G-6
Fw190A-4

FRENCH
Rank 1 (n00b)
H-75
D.520

Rank 2 (transitioning n00b)
Curtiss H.81

Rank 3 (new vet)
Bell Mle.14a

Rank 4 (vet)
Curtiss H.87

Rank 5 (top vet)
Lockheed P.322

BRITISH
Rank 1 (n00b)
Hurricane.IIb
Spitfire.Ia

Rank 2 (transitioning n00b)
Spitfire.IIb

Rank 3 (new vet)
Hurricane.IIc

Rank 4 (vet)
Spitfire.Vb

Rank 5 (top vet)
Spitfire.IX

SUMMARY: Tier 3 attributes
*Speed
1st. Fw190A-4
2nd. Lockheed-322
3rd. Spitfire.IX
4th. Bf109G-6U4

*Climb
1st. Spitfire.IX
2nd. Fw190A-4
3rd. Bf109G-6U4
4th. Lockheed-322

*Stall-Turn
1st. Spitfire.IX
2nd. Lockheed-322
3rd. Bf109G-6U4
4th. Fw190A-4

*Firepower
1st. Bf109G-6U4
2nd. Lockheed-322/Fw190A-4
3rd. Spitfire.IX

The Germans are the only country that gets two aircraft introduced in the (currently) final equipment introduction tier. Both are fairly narrow focus where the two Allied countries get a single aircraft of generally broader combat capabilities, covering a wider performance envelope of both speed and turning ability. The Allied air forces also gain some ability in their previously inferior climbing performance. Since ALL aircraft types are now in game by this stage, it tends to be moot that the Germans get 2 types in introduction and the Allies only the one each (which amounts to 2 functionally speaking) ... the abilities of the aircraft in question provide the parity that needs to be found given it isn't a red vs blue game and there needs to be acceptance of the differences to be dealt with as part of the broader war. The previous similarity in colour schemes each countries aircraft are painted is continued to make fast action in combat less likely to have you totally sure of what you're facing at all times ... as the range of aircraft types in action is now at it's most varied. Bf109s are all similar to enemy pilots at longer ranges as are Spitfires/Hurricanes to their opponents, while you are relying on long range identification. Up close you can begin to recognize individual variant types.

The early tier 0 and lower end tier 1 aircraft are generally being stripped out of supply by the late tier3 and post tier 3 stage of a campaign (particularly so with the low end tier 0 types) but there is still a very wide range of types to be found in combat at this latter stage of a campaign, making for a wide variety of encounters and the need by all pilots to work together and develop and exploit combat tactics to favour this range of differences in performance of all their different aircraft types, and those of their opponents.

As the campaign moves on to even later stages, and earlier types tend to be removed from the equipment inventory in favour of the new types of aircraft, some early types (tier 1 vet rides for the most part) will probably always be available in some numbers for the sake of both variety and for those that still favour the lighter more nimble types even in the latter stages of a live campaign. Rank access to the lower currently available aircraft types (which changes as the campaign continues on) will dynamically shift downwards to accommodate the need to have n00b equipment available for newer players who previously didn't have the rank to fly the better types when they were top tier aircraft in earlier tiers but are now no longer the top dogs of the equipment list. Thus n00bs in later stages of a campaign will be able to fly what were vet rides earlier on, like the D.520/Bf109E-4/Spitfire.Ia combo, or the H-81/Bf109F-1/Spitfire IIb combination at your first rank achievement.

We now have an excellent use of rank from the highest rank down to the lowest, and a transitional equipment access (through rank) that much better reflects the pilots ability to progress in skill and experience to climb the ladder of success, while not being stuck at the earliest equipment level from the beginning to the end of their campaign. This represents the best of both what is available and what one can experience in terms of roleplay to "rise through the ranks" and expand your choices as you gain experience and skill, and as the campaign progresses to it's later stages.

 

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Comments (1)
1 Wednesday, 04 March 2009 18:10
Guestuser
Add rockets to the hurrie 2 c :D
nice post i like the 30mm cannon