| Sappers, the difficult choice |
| Written by DOC |
| Tuesday, 26 August 2008 11:16 |
|
I thought it might be an idea to make clear what is being put forward here with this issue. Ultra realism or not, the game requires infantry anti-tank ability for the earlier part of the war when there were no bazookas or panzerfausts. Those kinds of weapons will come later in the conflict (we are planning on these but that's another subject) however ... earlier in the war, we need something to represent all the other ways an infantry unit could ambush a tank. In real life they had many methods that we can't at this time spend effort on modeling in detail, but the facts are we do use an abstracted representation that suits gameplay and the game would not be better without this unit. Tanks need to fear being caught by infantry if they operate without their own infantry support, but there are caveats to this and the issue is not a black and white one no matter how much you simplify it.Due to a number of factors, not the least of which being that this is a game and people don't behave in a game like they would in real life, especially when you consider MILITARY life ... we need to control some aspects of gameplay to direct it more to producing a result that works better than it might without those restrictions being used. This is what we intended when first the subject of "sappers without rifles" was first brought up. The sapper when he first appeared in the game didn't have a rifle, despite the fact we know in real life a sapper would normally carry a rifle. We added the rifle to the sapper for the same reasons people are asking he keep it now, because it allows him to "protect himself" when out in the field, and it's more "realistic". However there is another perspective to look at this from. The rifle allows the sapper to be an all around unit. The rifle is the most effective anti-infantry weapon in the game, more infantry are killed by rifles than any other weapon, by a huge margin. The sapper thus becomes a very popular infantry choice because he can go out in the field, hunt down tanks and kill infantry as effectively as a regular rifleman. Well we here at CRS have no problem with tanks being hunted and killed by infantry when close to town, and especially when in town. Out in the fields though, that's somewhere that tanks should not encounter lone enemy infantry "hunting them" like we see in game. At least not as often as happens in game now. In hindsight, we should never have given the sapper the rifle after first adding them to the game without a rifle. It's just too easy to be a sapper and "hunt tanks". The sapper should be available to deal with tanks when infantry find themselves facing tanks, rather than be something you choose to go out and hunt them with. However it is difficult to restrict those kinds of unrealistic choices that players make because it's just a game. One cannot argue "realism" when choosing to give the sapper a rifle and at the same time then go and employ that infantry unit in a totally unrealistic fashion. Well you can do this but it means your use of the word "realism" is selective and has now become a personal opinion rather than a guide to what is the correct choice. People suggest we "reduce the bushes exponentially!" as one solution. Well we probably will reduce them a little in size again (we have already done this twice previously) but the game needs those bushes. ATG's could not operate hardly at all without them as they lack any other form of concealment, and we can't build that concealment ability into the game in any short term manner. Infantry have very little cover apart from those bushes, some berms and clumps of trees ... and those sparser spread areas where woods or forests are present. People have also suggested we make sappers able to repair tracked tanks so that tankers learn to LIKE the sapper. This is a fine suggestion and one we have considered for a long time here, however we cannot "repair" tracked tanks in the game yet, visually or in code, once they have become damaged ... and the ability to do this may be some time in coming although it will come eventually. There has also been a suggestions for a new infantry unit, the true sapper unit which can blow FB's ... blow bridges, repair bridges and so on. He could carry a new satchel charge that is HE rather than HEAT. That way we could leave a much reduced number of "AT infantry" in the spawn lists with HEAT satchels that could be like our curent sappers, but with say 2 charges instead of 4. This would blend well with the transition to "AT infantry" when the RPAT (rocket propelled anti-tank) weapons come into the game. Perhaps when we do the RPAT infantrymen, that would be the ideal time to do the seperation of sappers into "sappers" with HE and "AT infantry" with the HEAT satchel. Maybe we only need to remove the rifle until we have all this other functionality in the game, then we can give it back. Whatever we do, we'll only please some of you. That's the nature of this, please some of you all of the time, and all of you some of the time, but never all of you all of the time. ;) So, in closing, it's a difficult choice. We are going to increase dramatically how long it takes to "set" a satchel charge on a tank. This alone may prove enough of a change. We do need to discourage the appeal of the ANTI TANK function of the sapper (rather than remove it) so that only the dedicated will choose it, instead of everybody wanting the "do everything guy" which is kind of what happens now. When you REALLY need sappers, for something like an FB busting mission ... they are all gone. We certainly know that a huge number of people don't want the rifle taken away from the sapper, but we ask you to consider all the other things mentioned in determining the sappers role in the game, and not just answer along the lines of "do you want more bullets or a bigger gun ? = Of course I do!" ... it's easy to say yes or no when you are being asked what you want but try to remember you can want something that isn't as good for the game as not getting what you want might be overall, in the bigger picture. There is a thread in the forums linked here where you can read all about the discussion taking place on this contentious issue. Try to avoid the rhetoric as some posters are a little on the wild side of possesed but they are just getting caught up in their emotions, in the end it's all good. Maybe you have something you'd like to say on the subject as well, sorry this was such a long read ! S!alute one and all.
Comments (54)
1
Tuesday, 26 August 2008 13:23
Guest
Well thought out and in a effort to make the sim as best as possible. Good job DOC.
2
Tuesday, 26 August 2008 14:25
Guest
how bout just giving him a CLIP of ammunition instead of taking the rifle completely away? That would just give him enough to defend himself in an extreme situation but not enough to engage in a rifle battle and you should make most happy.
3
Tuesday, 26 August 2008 15:23
Guest
Lockdown, FTW! One clip, great idea
4
Tuesday, 26 August 2008 16:27
Guest
prob wth sapr is tht 1 schl = 1 tnk evry 1 know whr to place sahl chrg for garnte kil, if i shoot a tnk wit an atg or tank, or evn drp bomb on it, im not garnte anything.mabe it shld take mor than 1 to kil tank"group efort"thn sapr can keep gun.
5
Tuesday, 26 August 2008 18:11
Guest
I think that if a person can use the terrain and his skill to kill then that is the way it is?If you are a tanker and park in the same spot for a hour and shoot every 5 seconds-then I should be able to crawl run and walk to you and sap you to death!
6
Tuesday, 26 August 2008 18:12
Guest
Even if the Tiger commander alt f4's at the first sign of a sachel sound. Also, making the brush smaller will only make it worse for guys hiding msps and oh yeah, tanks!
7
Tuesday, 26 August 2008 20:31
Guest
How about just a pistol, or how about when a sapper runs out of satchel charges he gets a rifle.
8
Tuesday, 26 August 2008 21:51
Guest
Sappers should be what they really were. Battlefield engineers. I think Sappers should be able to place satchels for the one shot on immobile tank. Throw satchel charges for a possible kill on a moving tank. Repair tracks and guns.
9
Tuesday, 26 August 2008 21:59
Guest
I enjoy sapping & don't want to be taken out of the equation. I wudnt mind not blowing pzrs skyhigh IF u give me a deadly ability in its place. LAYING A MINEFIELD. It wud be true 2 the ops of a sapper and appease the tanker chaps (Gawd luv'em)!!!
10
Tuesday, 26 August 2008 22:10
Guest
I posted a more detailed response in the linked thread, but my two cents are that I think that sappers should be given a sidearm (pistol) for self defense, and that the other aspects of them (number of charges, etc.) should be left alone.
11
Tuesday, 26 August 2008 22:35
Guest
How about taking the rifle off them, and giving them a pistol instead. They can still defend themselves, but it is far more limited. That way sappers are less inclined to hunt enemy infantry with such a limited ammo supply that you get with a pistol.
12
Tuesday, 26 August 2008 22:38
Guest
Drop the rifle down to a single clip. I rarely get past that first clip in my usage as a sapper.
13
Tuesday, 26 August 2008 23:53
Guest
There were no panzerfausts or bazookas but at the starts of the war there were panzerschrecks !!!!!!!!!!!
14
Wednesday, 27 August 2008 00:31
Guest
"we should never have given the sapper the rifle" ORLY ? ;) About the AT infantry, why not give those 2 remaining HEAT sachels to the ATR instead ? The atr would become the close-killer unit and he doesn't carry a rifle.
15
Wednesday, 27 August 2008 01:46
Guest
Yes,this is bad for some individual players, but would be the best for the game as a whole. The game we love A vis "nerf" like this is likely to be much easier to accept by the commun. than an invisible one only changed in the damage/armor code.
16
Wednesday, 27 August 2008 03:57
Guest
Sapper has like 2 1st class weapons, so he's too powerful. Give him secondary class rifle, not the brand new delux model. And in fact, that's really realistic and less accurate jamming annoyance would make sappers rethink using them in city fights.
17
Wednesday, 27 August 2008 05:28
Guest
There's FAR too many tanks in game as it is, making it easier for them is a sure way of losing hardcore infantry players. Reducing the effectiveness of sappers before introducing other AT measures seems a little backward to me.
18
Wednesday, 27 August 2008 11:01
Guest
I like the idea of having separate anti-tank sappers with HEAT and anti-FB sappers with HE. With this change the tank hunter crowd won't cripple the FB busting crowd with their antics.
19
Wednesday, 27 August 2008 13:13
Guest
Making the saper less "UBER" , like removing the rifle, would be a good thing for the game. Take away some of the charges too. There already is Air , Guns and Tanks for dealing with enemy tanks. Thats more than enough.
20
Wednesday, 27 August 2008 13:15
Guest
Yup, something like that CRS. Good for the game!
21
Wednesday, 27 August 2008 15:19
Guest
I agree with Doc about have two groups: Sapper and AT Sapper (infantry). Two types of satchel charges are HE (for FB buster)and HEAT(against Tanks). I would not mind to have fuse delay.
22
Wednesday, 27 August 2008 15:21
Guest
According to history, a Pioneer or Sapper was trained as an infantry rifleman. I would let "HE" sapper to have rifle. I encourage to allow the AT infantry to have pistol only with limited two satchel charges.
23
Wednesday, 27 August 2008 15:22
Guest
Each HEAT satchel weigh 4kg (approx 8.8 lbs). HE satchel weigh abut 2kg (4.4 lbs). No Rambo style pls. I am hoping to see the new AT infantry as RPAT.
24
Wednesday, 27 August 2008 16:20
Guest
By nerfing sappers, we might see more ppl spend time with Paks/ATGs, which is a heavily underappreciated weapon. And hopefully, we can create incentives so that players change their attitude towards towing for others.
25
Wednesday, 27 August 2008 19:14
Guest
i would prefer no sappers to have rifle. that way when attacking an fb the sapper will want to be stealthy as he has no way of fighting back. sappers who fire on fb busts are making mistakes imo
26
Wednesday, 27 August 2008 20:30
Guest
to one comment, panzerschrecks were til after the panzerfausts. which came into service in 1943.
27
Wednesday, 27 August 2008 20:33
Guest
In fact in some of my research, the ATG riflemen had a assistant gunner, once the ATG disabled the tank, the assistant blew the tank with a small charge.
28
Wednesday, 27 August 2008 20:38
Guest
Sturmpistole could be used as well. Though not a major AT weapon. Could de-track a tank. To me a tracked tank is almost as good as a dead take just stear clear of it.
29
Wednesday, 27 August 2008 21:29
Guest
I think the sapper should keep his gun the satchel modeled more closely to real in weight He may take those four 25 lbs satchels into the field with him but not run fast unless he deploys some of the satchels into a spot on the ground as extra ammo
30
Wednesday, 27 August 2008 21:42
Guest
Now you want to nerf the sapper unit??? Isn't it enough of an advantage that tanks are bullet-proof; can kill inf from 1,500 meters with unlimited MG fire; even further away by shelling an entire bushline? Wise up CRS and leave the sappers alone.
31
Wednesday, 27 August 2008 21:44
Guest
Since the sapper is a close combat unit, take the rifle away and give them either a pistol with 4 reloads or a submachine with 2 clips.
32
Wednesday, 27 August 2008 21:45
Guest
Just give the sapper an SMG? Or a gun we don't have yet that's better at short range.
33
Wednesday, 27 August 2008 22:14
Guest
fix the know "problems" with the game before taking away something good. or maybe take away a gun from the 232 cuz it is too powerful. give me a break, really. leave the sapper alone.
34
Wednesday, 27 August 2008 22:54
Guest
Well im really worried, any changes at sapper capacity to blow tanks will unbalance game if we dont change too the british grenadier if its too difficult blow a tank , only for one side.... how do u think balance that?
35
Thursday, 28 August 2008 02:57
Guest
Historically, infantry always had the ability to disable a tank, by various methods. For those complaining about accuracy, please get over yourselves. The ability of infantry to assail a tank is vital to maintaining balance on the playing field.
36
Thursday, 28 August 2008 06:56
Guest
I agree that either reducing the ammo or giving the sapper a different weapon that has limited range is the best idea yet. Is it possible that we come up with a new short range weapon that would be exclusive just for the sapper?
37
Thursday, 28 August 2008 09:18
Guest
Keep the rifle, but reduce ammo to emergency loadout. Long term, split FB busters from tank hunters. One of the fb sappers charges could remain dual purpose 'heat' (3 he, 1 heat) to allow to sap the odd tank at an fb as well as fb structure?
38
Thursday, 28 August 2008 11:14
Guest
okay, rifle is too much. SMG with 1 spare or none and pistol. Current load-out does have too much offensive parity with reg riflemen. Love separating idea!
39
Thursday, 28 August 2008 13:03
Guest
There were no panzer schreks at wars beginning, and only into the late 30'd early 40's did they have the first panzerfausts the 30 m and a smaller one I beleive.
40
Thursday, 28 August 2008 14:48
Guest
NO CHANGE. A smg would be worthless. How many times have YOU spawned a smg and walked 2 miles out of town and killed anything W/smg? Sappers are stalkers and are not in close hand to hand combat situations. you guys are really crazy aren't you?
41
Friday, 29 August 2008 14:46
Guest
kilo33 hit it right on the nose fellas. Giv'em mines....THATS what sappers/combat engineers/pioneren do anyway.
42
Friday, 29 August 2008 22:10
Guest
i say leave sapper alone, i hate seeing so many tanks wasted by driving into a town with no infantry cover. repairing tracked tanks is a great idea though
43
Saturday, 30 August 2008 04:06
Guest
Huskerne, the sapper is a stalker, and yet shouldn't have an smg? The smg is perfect for his role. He should be hiding and sneaking most of the way, not shooting distant enemies. I think giving the sapper an SMG is the perfect compromise.
44
Saturday, 30 August 2008 11:53
Guest
needs a medic that can only heal his teammates. also a litter team and ambulance as a car you can drive and medic can ride on. but the "killer" of the casualty still gets kill points. medic gets heal points and ambulance driver gets points.
45
Saturday, 30 August 2008 20:13
Guest
Flaxon,don't be a twit.Get in a bush 500m from me, you get smg and I will have a rifle, or maybe axis lmg.Now as I run towards you,kill me with the smg before I kill you.OH,and 2 tanks are near you scanning.HAVE FUN!
46
Sunday, 31 August 2008 00:35
Guest
There is no analogy in the real world for a solo infantryman out 3 km away from the line hunting tanks.
47
Sunday, 31 August 2008 08:26
Guest
Don't like the idea of taking away the sapper rifle at all, but CRS has shown good judgement about 80% of the time in these things so I'll wait and see how it goes.
48
Sunday, 31 August 2008 12:14
Guest
Don't nerf the sapper. Sappers are the best unit in the game.
49
Sunday, 31 August 2008 23:39
Guest
I liked the SMG idea at first but, if you give him an SMG then all the SMG players will just spawn a sapper. There will quickly be none left in the spawn list.
50
Monday, 01 September 2008 10:23
Guest
I don't agree with "nerfing" any unit/piece of equipment and get tired of this as the "fix" for game play.Nerfing stuff map to map or patch to patch gets very annoying and will effect my longevity in this game.
51
Wednesday, 03 September 2008 09:05
Guest
Eliminate points for sappers except FB busts.
52
Thursday, 04 September 2008 22:38
Guest
I think the sappers have been fine. My abilities to sap armor is sub par at best and although I hate getting sapped ... its the nature of it. Maybe start giving tank commanders the ability to have a mounted MG.
53
Saturday, 06 September 2008 03:51
Guest
For the love of pete man leave the sapper alone! work on fixing things that dont work,if a tanker gets caught alone he deserves to die.many times I've had to kill tank inf support just to get to a tank to kill it! it works leave it alone.
54
Saturday, 06 September 2008 04:32
Guest
Keep the rifle, and remove the binocs for the sapper class... that should do the job for good gameplay, and it's also more realistic.
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